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Opinions on the general club direction

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Post  Oden Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:14 am

Initially this was meant to be an informal discussion but I guess we'll get down to the nitty gritty of it. I've been brutally honest to those that have brought things up to me, but have been mostly quiet (as usual) to the general scope of things. So here is where everyone gets an (hopefully polite) ear full.

Admin Roles
Officers should take a more prominent leadership when it comes to leading games. This means getting everyone to pay attention. When people aren't, they should deal with such occurrences swiftly, decisively, and concisely. What I'm saying is that the explosive outbursts, disgruntled stares, and loose call outs asking if they mind are all slack wristed, half-assed responses to the problem.

Field Use
We barely utilize the field to it's full potential. I'm not saying use the entire field every game but for the main AO, we use something around the size of Worsham Field (excluding people using excessive flanking). We're always by the road assaulting/defending the fort.

Game Types
It seems like we're overcomplicating things atleast once a game day. For certain games we just don't have the technology for, and others the logistics for. Video Game multiplayer modes (save the simple ones) generally don't work for walk on games (walk on is a key word). We don't have people with HUDs telling them where to go when objectives move, we don't have timers telling us when something has been captured, we don't have the luxury of being teleported to a new spawn point when we die.

It also seems we're settling on Attack and Defend all the time. This includes "Go attack this flag, then the next, then the next till you have them all." We have a myriad of game types that utilize many people's skills and talents including but not limited to Team Deathmatch, Classic Team Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, Center Flag, Bomb, Center Bomb, VIP, Hostage, Downed Pilot, Mogadishu Pilots, etc.

Big OP Mentality / Member Roles
Not everyone goes to OPs, and to be brutally honest not everyone that goes is cut out for the job (I know there have been times I know I wasn't cut out for it). I'm not going to judge people that attend, sure I'll pick out weaknesses, but if I get a chance to, I'll try to help improve that individual performance should they want it, and I expect the same in return. We shouldn't be OP oriented, because then we exclude those that don't go to said OPs (you didn't see me, Bob, Slice, Max, and Ian dragging people out to namsoft and then forcing our games to be similar)

Everyone here has a talent and specialty that they prefer to do and work on. Some of us like CQC, sneaking, assaulting, guarding, hunting, reconning, etc. Some despise other forms of combat (I personally HATE CQC). Not everyone here is cut out to be a super high-speed operator. When I look at everyone, I see potential for scout snipers, force recon, rangers, marines, etc (or atleast roles similar to them). Trying to fit everyone into a single role is not only futile but also drains the fun out of something we do for just that...fun.

Emphasis on the word Team
To be short and blunt we're NOT a team. We are a club. I supported the NCAO registration from a utilitarian standpoint of getting perks at their events. If we form an official team it should not hinder the activities of the club. People should volunteer to be part of said team and not be conscripted to train or participate in related activities that benefit the team by sacrificing the club's main goal (fun). As a club we host walk on games over the weekend to play and have fun together. Should a team wish to practice during those times they should be welcome to (it's in our TOS with Forest Service iirc), and we should share the land appropriately.
Oden
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Post  Prophet Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:24 am

This is part of a short reply right now but here are a few quick points.
1. Reliance on admins: we are all in the club and I feel it is everyone's responsibility to participate in the running of the club. Admins aren't parents, we are all of legal age and should be counted upon to act like men. If someone is not paying attention it should be called out by the group as well as any admin. If there are some games or scenarios you would like to play feel free to suggest them.

2. I personally think a little training goes a long way. Anyone can be made into a soldier. Roles expand based on experience. But the skills that can be taught will apply to someone in any role. We don't have to be OP oriented per say. But we have always been a little Milsim pointed, at least in my time here. Otherwise we degrade down to children playing dress up and running around willy billy in the woods. Tactical training is a new thing here but I want to give it a try. I think it will improve ALL our game types. Lets give it a chance. Hell almost any club including the yoga club the scuba club the ultimate frisbee club they all have some form of training. I would like to have a lil but of training followed by a game to reinforce that and then whatever games people want for the rest if the day. If there is a game type you would really like to play that uses the large part of the field please make one up and we will do it. Don't rely on others to make it. Everyone has a say. Make your statement by designing a cool pilot rescue etc. if people would come to the game armed with a scenario or two then it makes for better games. Right now your admins like certain types. It is not their fault if no one suggests or prepares something new. Bring a scenario to next game and we will play it. I look forward to see what you come up with for sat. Should be fun!

I know that we are not an official team but almost everyone participates in OPs during the year. I also feel that everyone has the potential to do great. A little training at the beginning of the day is not such a bad thing. Of course if everyone hates it and just want to run around and play without any emphasis on working better together that can be decided by the group. But I think that will just encourage games that are based on loose skirmish techniques. Ones where we are just paintsofters. Give the training a try for awhile before condemning it. You just may be surprised at people you never thought were capable showing some new capabilities. Training can improve small team effectiveness, commo during combat, individual movement techniques, ability to counter other tactics through recognition and adjustment, you name it.

I would like to use more of the field as well. Especially for VIP and some downed pilot stuff. Or movement to contact style death match. That would please both worlds as the team moving to contact can be composed of peeps that want to train and the people being contacted can be the casuals. I feel that there are people that have never had any training and getting this knowledge will really help them become better players. Some of us already have the training yes. Those peeps should have a lil patience. As people get trained up on basics we can move on to other things.

Someone I can't remember who remarked that they were able to peel back from an objective in an organized fashion and covered each other on the way. They said it was really cool to act together and it was really effective. That is the type of thing I want to encourage. Sure training is not always "fun" it's the results of the training that are awesome!

Thanks for the post Gene, I always value an honest opinion. And please make a scenario!!! I want to use the field as a whole. Help me make that happen.

One last thing. I don't think we are at the point of creating a "team". Dividing play is just going to wreck the attendance of both days as most can only devote time to one day. We have people that enjoy both types of games. Why should we only cater to those that want a certain type? We should play all the styles that people want. Isn't that more fair?
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Post  Dragoncaptin Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:29 pm

I'm stealing Gene's titles cuz they work well and all my points fit into them. Onwards.

Admin roles
Personally I would love to see more responsibility from the club members in paying attention. As it seems I'm usually the one trying to spell out the rules for the game were about to play it gets really frustrating have to talk over people constantly or having to tell someone multiple time within five minutes to be quiet so everyone else can hear. It's also frustrating to look around and see people seemingly not be paying attention. I know you need to load mags and whatever but still its disrespectful to not be paying attention to someone whose trying to talk to you. Bottom line, you're adults. Act like it.

Field use
Would love to see us use more of the field. There are parts I have personally explored and would love to play in but it always seems like the idea of making people walk farther just to start a game doesn't go over well. There's tons of awesome terrain out in the field and also on the hike in that's easily accessible from our staging area. But I've been told before that playing hill 100 games is too much work. Or walking out farther into the field is too far to go to play a game that can just as easily be played where we always do. I perosnally would also like to run more games on the right side of the road (the 'canada' side) as that side has some freaking epic terrain and is close. We do need to explore more.

Game types
I'm gonna make an assumption here and say that a lot of what Gene said here was directed towards one game in particular and that would be the 'Flashpoint' game I attempted to run last week. So I'll gladly take the heat for that failure. At the same time though I would like to point out that last week alone we played 3 game types that we hadn't run before. I personally hate, hate hate hate hate hate, playing attack and defend the fort. And am tired of playing VIP as it seems like at the end of last semester those are the only two games we could play. (Also A&D the fort is the same game every freaking time). So I want to see us play more game types which is what that was an attempt and fail at. But with that failure I have modified it and now there are two versions that could be playable. Also I would love to see the lock games come back, and more bomb games, and Tears of the sun, and maybe some VIP games. Saying that all we do is attack and defend flags is a little bit harsh seeing as how at its core other than a few exceptions every game is attack and defend something. And trying to adapt video game types into airsoft is a great way to get new game types. Yes they will be flawed but if we don't try how will we ever get more variation. Also there's and entire section of our forum dedicated to new game types that hasn been poste in since August. Here's a link. And since this is a club about weekend games that's kinda what matters....which brings me to....

Big op mentality/member roles
Personally I find this recent push towards tactics and big games and such kinda annoying. WE ARE A CLUB. Not a team. Our main goal has and should always be providing fun weekly games to those members who come out. Anything beyond and past that should take place outside of our weekly allotted game time. If one person wants to use tactics I'm all for it. If you want to roll with certain people cuz they know those tactics, cool I'm still with ya. Where I personally draw the line is when said tactics are FORCED upon the rest of the club whether they want it or not. What happens when you have a brand new player come out and there's this mandatory training time at the beginning? I don't know about the rest of you but if it were my first experience that would probably turn me off. I'm all for creating game types that will encourage people to work together tactically and help them learn it, but I refuse to be part of anything that is mandatory. We are a club that has no membership fees or any kind of real commitment. You show up, you play, you have fun. If we fail at that then how can we call ourselves a club?

emphasis on the word team
As I've already said I think we've managed to get away from the word club here. As in any organization there will be little groups that become their own and that's just what happens with large groups. But calling ourselves a team at all is stupid. If we want to create a little team inside the club that knows tactics and practices together and goes to ops together sure I'm all for that. Just not during our weekly games. We need to remember what it is that we started out as, a group of people just trying to have fun playing airsoft on the weekends. When we lose site of that we stop being ACVT, and start being something I'm not sure I wanna be a part of.
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Post  Prophet Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:52 pm

Nothing is forced on anyone, we are trying to let all the people get a little of what they want. I see no problem with people not wanting to do training. Then go do another game in another part of the field at that time, or come later. Easy fix. But to require people who have little time as it is to run a whole other day is being kind of ridiculous. That is just going to divide the club. Surely you can see that would not be productive. Two games a weekend with half the people at each? Not productive. And training encompassing the first game leaves the whole rest of the day for other things and other types of games!

And who is calling this a "team"? Not me we are far from what a "team" would be. And why does being in a "club" mean no learning or having to schedule a whole other day for that. Having people separate into two things will just decrease the attendance at both and cause animosity. You guys should give this a chance before condemning it. No one is expecting us to be the corps of cadets. I just would rather not have us be the child army of Somalia. Since there are legitimate club members that want to do training it is the same thing as you guys not wanting to. To force those people to play a whole different day is not being fair to them. You just want what YOU want and don't want to compromise or allow both styles to coexist. There is no reason we cant have a lil training and then start the other kind of games you love to play. Personally I have no love for a "virus" style game or care if I ever play "zombie" again in my life. But I participate because we all share this experience together.

So come with some alternate game types for training time if you don't care about attending that. That training time is only taking the time of the first game or so which in the past has been warm up time and not the best games anyway. But instead why not participate in helping all our guys gain some knowledge? Whats the worst that could happen? Someone learns to be more effective? And it doesnt have to happen every week. After people have a basic knowledge we can just use a game that emphasizes tactics. But we must first all know what page we are reading off of!

But if you all decide that you don't want to learn anything then we will do that. I have actually gotten some very positive feedback on the two trainings that Peter has done so far. There is no reason why a little learning can't be fun unless you make it that way.

Stating again though that requiring a whole other day for training time is a lil silly, no one can devote a whole weekend to airsoft every weekend. Why are you trying to split the club? If you look at 80-90% of the people that play have been to at least one OP this year, 50% have been to more than one. It is silly to say we should not devote any time towards being good as an individual and as a unit. Plus it will make ANY game type better if we know how to move and communicate with one another. Less blue on blue, less confusion as to how to accomplish a given task.

I am agreed that we should try out new games and they wont always work the first time. Introducing new things is a process and I encourage that. If a game doesnt work the first time we improve it as we have always done. We should take lessons learned from Gavin running that game and try it again. A lil tactics attention is a new thing as well so can we not condemn it with ultimatums of not wanting to be part of a club that actually has some time devoted to teaching? Give it a shot Gav. You may learn something and help someone else learn what you already know.

But hey if everyone wants to just play games and not learn stuff that is okay too. I thought it was a good idea, so did others but if in the end it is not wanted then so be it. Some other people please chime in. Have you guys learned anything from the training so far? Do you think it has been a positive or negative experience?

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Post  Church Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:12 pm

Here is the problem I see gentlemen. Look at who is commenting on this post.... all of us old guys! Where are the new members at voicing their opinion? Yea once ACVT always ACVT I am sure...but one day this club will be run by someone else. But for the time being I wish that such negative shoutouts did not dominate what goes on here....


I totally agree with more game types. I miss the locks games, bomb plant, downed pilots...and even that stupid mole game that I usually got screwed in! And fellas, once new game types are introduced, how will you know if it will be pass/fail without trying? Give it a chance, especially since we are struggling for new game types...

As far as the OPs go, no one has ever forced anyone to go. I believe that some people in the club have found enjoyment in these more than skirmish games and because of that enjoyment it has become highly recommended to others because of the level of fun had. If it is something that frustrates you then don't feel left out by other ACVT members going and enjoying themselves.

Which leads to the point of...forced "training" on our Saturday pick up games. I wish that "forced" wasn't such a heavily used word. If Chris Costa were to stroll up our mountain and say "boys, I'm going to take 30 min of your time to teach you how to hold your gun properly and outsmart your enemy" I would like to think you will listen. Give a regular guy or people a chance to introduce their ideas and be thankful for their time. If anyone looks to advance their game, then why not hear out what someone has to say or give their knowledge a chance.

Finally...since "CLUB" is being stressed so much over "TEAM"...then I don't believe that the Role of Admins should be the only factor in consideration. No one should have to fear speaking up or presenting questions (even after 5 min of a game explanation) to admins. Admins are elected officials upon belief of well being of the club. Its not a power trip...those people should fulfill that role to help and if in the general club's eye, if those people are not fulfilling their duty then I would like to think that upon next vote, members of the club can choose to vote for a different direction of the club.

I know that I serve no office and merely enjoy the trigger time and weekly meals with you gentlemen, but I do want the best for the one group of guys that I get to enjoy my favorite hobby with!
Church
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Post  lt. lipsh Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:32 pm

Admin roles
I am here to have fun. Im going to make jokes, and enjoy myself. Im not going to be a club officer, nor do I care to be one. Whatever the club officers decide to do I'll listen to and support, even if it isnt what i want.

Field use
Use whatever part of the field you want. We use the road and the fort a lot, because they have good mobility and solid cover. I run around and do those "excessive flanking maneuvers, and I see the whole field. You want to use more of the field, walk out there.

Game types
I like airsoft, and i dont mind the occasional failure of a game type. If the club officers want to try stuff, I'm cool with it. I like doing other things than attack and defend, but keep in mind that EVERY conflict is going to be a variation of attacking and defending, because that is all there is to airsoft.

Big op mentality/member roles
What is the difference between a club and a team? I couldn't tell you. For me, a major part of airsoft is working together with people as a team, weather its people ive known for years or met 5 minutes ago. I use tactics, and if people want to learn my tactics ill teach them. If the club officers tell me to do tactics ill do tactics. Other clubs at Virginia Tech aren't all about what individuals want to do, and neither should ACVT. If we have club "officers" then we already have a chain of command, with goals and ideas. If you don't like the direction the club officers take, tell them about it. It's our club and we can do whatever we want with it.

emphasis on the word team
A club is a type of team. We have a group of people with a common goal. ACVT goes to OP's together and plays as a team, so if we want to train for those OP's it makes sense. If we don't train I don't really care, I'll do my thing with my shotgun and pew pew whoever I can.

Final note:
ACVT is awesome, I love playing with everyone. No matter what games we play or what OP's we go to I always have fun with ACVT, and I appreciate it a lot. I gave my opinion but i don't actually care about the direction of the club that much, as long as I get to hang out with you guys and have fun Im happy

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Post  Cleaver Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:57 pm

This club has come a long way since I started. Hell, we've all seen the photographs. I'm really happy with the way things have developed, and I believe we've made positive growth as a club internally, locally, and in other states. People like playing with us, and we garner a certain level of respect from our kindness, cooperation, and sportsmanship.

The reason for this growth, I believe, is something that Kaleb touched on, and is something that ends up being both a blessing and a curse. This club (or team, it doesn't really matter as Peter said, we're a group with a common goal), is made up of a disproportionate number of what I would call "veteran players". Most of the attendance on a weekly basis is made up of members that have been here for 3 or more years. It's not really a surprise that we would start yearning for something more, something bigger, than our weekly dozen-man pick-up games.

I'm afraid that this growth has sort of created a level of exclusivity. 5 years ago anyone could come and play and feel included because everyone was running around willy-nilly with cheap second-hand BDUs. Do I want that back? Absolutely not, I love the position this club is currently in. However, we seem to have created a bit of a barrier of entry for ourselves.

So what do I want to see?

I think tactics games could be fun. I enjoyed the little session Peter threw 2 weeks ago when I played. It didn't take long, and I think if we immediately integrate the lesson into a related game type then the "training" wouldn't be a huge hindrance. I mean, let's be honest, sometimes it takes us 30 minutes to load mags. If we do better about planning games before gameday then fitting in a 30 minute "training" session followed by 1 or 2 related game scenarios I think everything could work. The training sessions would also be a good way to integrate and include those that are just joining us. Most of the veterans know this stuff, at least basically, but I kinda wish we had done this stuff when I was starting out.

That said, my number 1 priority is playing airsoft is to have fun. Yes, I like Virus. Yes, I like Mole. Yes, I like Sharks and Minnows. As much as I like rolling with a squad, I also like being a goof and running through the woods shooting at people with fake guns. That's the sort of attitude this club had years ago, and many people stuck around because that kind of stuff is just fun. Organization gives you growth, plain old fun gives you sustainability.

TL;DR Everything in moderation I guess. Our club has grown because of organization and participation in OPs, but let's not forget, we aren't GMR over here, and we don't want to be.

As far as leadership goes, let's be honest, damn near everyone has been "leadership" at some point. While I do believe that current standing officers should get priority, the choice of gametypes and squad leadership shouldn't necessarily be exclusive to them. We're all (or have been) in school, things get busy, everyone knows that. We can't expect elected officials to be on top of things all the time because school is a priority, and there's nothing wrong with that. Which is also why there shouldn't be anything wrong with spreading out responsibility a bit. There are plenty of capable individuals in this group.

As a final note, I think a concern for this club should be longevity. We have A LOT of people leaving in the next 3 semesters. You want to talk about direction, we need to begin looking towards this club's legacy. We've come a long way, it'd be a shame to not have anyone carry it on. I know no one has any intention of creating any kind of exclusivity, but from the outside looking in, with our elaborately crafted impressions and our finely-tuned guns, that's a big hurdle.

Recruit. Teach, train, and include new players in tactics, movements, and roles. But most importantly, have fun.

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Post  lt. lipsh Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:11 pm

Cleaver wrote:

Recruit. Teach, train, and include new players in tactics, movements, and roles. But most importantly, have fun.


I could not agree more. Im going to keep bringing cadets out to play, and I think everyone should bring your friends out. If you don't have an extra gun use mine (i keep them at sean's) but get new players out to continue the fun

-in a few days after we have decided the direction of the club I think we should talk about a recruiting plan

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Post  Prophet Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:22 pm

Basically I am just asking everyone to trust me as President. To try this out for a few weeks. Then we can have an AAR about it and decide if it has helped our games and helped our new recruits and helped make us a tighter unit. If not then we ditch it. And like I said, once we have the group knowing the basics, it becomes an integration thing. New guys will absorb what we do without training. They will learn by following the people that already know. Then maybe we can have separate training days to get everyone back on the same page. This is an experiment and just like trying new game types I just ask that people keep an open mind. Very Happy
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Post  Oden Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:32 pm

It's nice to get these things out in the open, and I hope we do this more often. Please remember to NOT take criticisms to heart. This is meant to be constructive and not aimed at particular people or instances.

After reading everything here is my analysis (and then suggestions):

We usually have alot of down time prior to the first game where people are loading up mags, setting up rigs, etc. This time is wasteful to the people who show up ready to go (main reason why me and Probes show up late, and I usually nap in the staging area prior to briefings).

Slack wristed responses to interruptions during briefings is a problem, and the informality of briefings are only making it worse. People will continue to interrupt and not pay attention when they have the opportunities available

Training should be provided to those who wish to participate, in a manner that doesn't incumber those that do not wish to participate. In order to be fair to newer people, it should be structured, documented, and cyclic.

now Suggestions:

We should utilize the time that people have been using to prep to train. People serious about getting better should show up either early or ready to go (you don't have to wait for the convoy or truck). The 30 mins before briefing time can be used for drills and lectures. These drills/lectures must be planned ahead of time and documented on what is to be taught and how. Topics should cycle in order, so that people gain familiarity and newer members are garunteed a fair education.

Daily briefing time should be structured, documented and organized. There needs to be a hard copy that all admins should bring onto the field. Attendees for that weekend should be required to attend the briefing void of messing with equipment. Interruptions should be dealt with swiftly by admins. Admins lead by example, this includes reaching down the throats of offenders; people will not learn without punishment or examples. If i'm talking to someone during your brief, say my name firmly and correct my actions. If I'm loading a magazine or fiddling with my rig, have a similar response. Do it the moment you notice it, don't stare and expect me to realize I'm being a dick because you aren't.

A definate time table must be kept and maintained. Admins should run comms to help facilitate this (you don't need a fancy headset, I have cheap talkies that I can donate).



I sadly won't be attending this weekend due to a personal vacation coming a weekend early. I will do what I can to draft plans while on the road however. Expect related topics to spring up in the following weekend.
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Post  Bad Decision Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:43 pm

REDACTED


It would not be fair of me to post my opinions without calling myself out on my own issues. I am a bossy, ignorant prick sometimes. I expect respect and I want to be included. I hate it when I ask for attention and people don't care; such as during briefings. After giving up presidency, I have felt somewhat cast aside even though I still am extremely useful.

-But this is the point: I am no longer leadership nor do I decide the direction of the club but I should have a say. I need to sit down and keep my mouth shut instead of creating further problems and seek out the upper leadership to approve anything I deem to be pertinent to our club including new games.

For my blatant irresponsibility and selfishness as well as overbearing qualities, I am sorry. And I say that to the club, in general, and to the officers.




Last edited by Shifter23 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  SmokeInYourEyes Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:39 pm

TLDR, might be repeating some people's points but having played off and on with the club for nearly four years, as well as playing with a club in CA for a year I think my point will hold merit.

Admins: No brainer, someone has to run the games. It's definitely gotten better since I started.

Tactics/ Club vs. Team: We are a club, not everyone will care for tactics. The most successful club I played with was the CA one. It had the most tactical team I've ever seen (website: http://www.mikeforceairsoft.org). What made the club successful was that instead of forcing everyone to practice tactics before the game, the club leader would hold a separate day of training. Without doing this attendance would have been dismal, only about a quarter of the people playing did the training stuff. Instead of running the club into the ground to force training on everyone, have the people who are interested show up an hour and a half early and practice, or hold a day of training on Sundays. If you try to incorporate the training into the games then you'll just be doing the same stuff every single week to catch people back up. In a real life situation practice will improve your chances of survival, in airsoft it's boring and serves no purpose since the game is basically practice. You can practice the tactics during games and if you kick enough ass maybe you can convince more people to come to the training.

edit: Just sort of skimmed through and wanted to address Sean's argument that having separate training divides the club. If you're running training and the game separately the club is already divided. Everyone in the club likes to play airsoft. Some people in the club like to play tactically. There's no reason to spend less time doing something everyone will enjoy to do something only a few people will enjoy.

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Post  Cleaver Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:57 pm

"Training" seems to be popping up a lot, so I'm going to comment on that here briefly.

The primary concern it seems is that training will cut into trigger time. This is a valid concern, airsoft time to many (including myself) is precious. My suggestion, then, is to roll a specific skill / lesson into a specific game type. These game types can be developed, integrated, and planned for in the days leading up to the weekend game. The staging time would be enough to brief those not clued in on what, specifically, we're doing, and then we practice / learn under pressure of a real game scenario.

Obviously, with any game, the objective is victory. That said, most players (including me) will use strategy they perceive to be a victorious approach. This may not often be correct. I believe to set up a more effective training emulation we set up scenarios in which failure is OK. I believe we can develop informal yet informative game types that will allow people to be more experimental. Lessons are still learned, and we all still get trigger time.

I've developed a game that I believe can allow for such an emulation. Its main goal is to teach bounding and to allow a player to become familiar with moving while under fire. It's linked here: "Hot Cover" Training Game

Way I see it, you run 1 or 2 of these quick scenarios, the run through our plethora of gametypes the rest of the day. We always kind of scramble for a warm-up game before the deep stuff, why not use that time to do these? In all likelihood players will continue to try to develop what they had done earlier in the day.

I'm aware that "training" isn't the primary issue being discussed and that there are many things in play here. I do, however, see a certain middle ground that can be achieved, and I do not believe this will take away from a weekly, organized array of our vast library of deep gametypes.

Also, I think we can all agree that shadowing new players may be the best thing we can do. I think everyone has pretty much said this at some point, but giving due diligence to a new player may be the best way to teach someone, and ourselves, of a given skill set. The best lessons to ourselves are sometimes the lessons we teach.
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Post  Dutch Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:04 am

Admin Roles-
Seems the problem is that people talk through the game briefings. There is only so much an admin can do. I can tell you to shut up, be stern, etc etc, but what can we do beyond that? I’m not going to physically punish people. I can tell you to be quiet and stop interrupting, but at that point it is up to that person to act like they aren’t 5 years old playing at recess.


Field Use-
We can use more of the field. Part of that is actually figuring out our boundaries, which we are still waiting on the rangers for. But we can expand a good bit as of right now anyways.


Game Types-
We are constantly trying and testing new game types. Some will work, some won’t. How are we supposed to know how a new game type will work if we don’t test it in the field? So there will be games that won’t work, and in turn be a clusterfuck and not that much fun. We will learn if we can fix it or to scrap it. It is all part of the process.


Big OP Mentality/Member Roles-
People have been complaining for a while about the tactics thing. But no one has actually raised their distaste about it to the whole club. If you have an opinion on something that we as officers are doing let us know. On the forum, on facebook, something. Everyone needs to know how you feel. We want to make sure that everyone is happy.

More specifically, from what I have seen the past 2 weeks, people have seemed to enjoy the tactics stuff. And honestly I haven’t heard from any of the new guys that they are particularly miffed about having to do tactics. Just the old fuckers who know the stuff and seem annoyed at it.

Obviously there are those that don’t agree with it. But you elected the officers you elected, so follow what they are doing. Voice your opinions. As an officer I want to hear what everyone thinks.

Since this is such a big point of contention maybe we should do what Sean said and run a regular game at the same time as the tactics training. But I do still want to hear EVERYONE’S opinion on the tactics and not just the old fart’s opinions.


Emphasis on the word Team- I’m with Peter. A club is a type of team. We all travel to events and play as a team, what else would you call it? I think this issue is just the tactics issue rehashed.




To sum it up, I want to hear from the newer guys. This is just a bunch of us old guys pickering. I'm more worried about getting new members and retaining them.
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Post  ACVT-Admin Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:31 pm

Most of the things I was holding out to say have been mentioned. I will instead discuss solutions that will address these issues:

1) VOTING. This club has become too large for informal decision making. Back in the day, we could make a decision at the field and implement with the few regularly participating players we had. Now our club has reached new levels of play style, participation, field use, and equipment, and as such, all major decisions must be discussed before implementation. A first tier discussion should take place among officers and admins. This filters out unwanted ideas and has all officers on the same page. The whole "tactics implementation" was a huge shock to me, and something I would have preferred to listen in on. Yes, this means outside meetings for admins and officers. There should be no excuse here for that; elected officers have the responsibility to organize even if that means spending outside time. It can be as formal as a classroom discussion at a building on campus, or as informal as a meal shared between the leadership members. The forums are here to facilitate discussion amongst leadership and members, but I think large decisions are still best discussed in person. The second tier discussion occurs at the club level, with simple voting at the forums (which I know is harder said then done with revolving membership, but then no one can complain about policy if public voting has occurred). Only then can you decide as a group whether it is accepted or not. I bet if we followed this path, we could more accurately gauge whether the tactics training is accepted by club members or not. Right now, I'm not sure whether the club likes, or dislikes it, because we have no accurate gauge to measure it with. Blame my engineering background for my desire to collect data.

2) FIELD USE. I know we have been keeping constant communication with the rangers. However, I think it may be necessary to have an additional officer dedicated specifically to taking care of ranger/park issues. That, or assign it to the club secretary. Spreading the responsibility out amongst leadership means a dilution of progress. Having one responsible person who is accountable means the job is likely to be completed thoroughly and followed through. Issues such as boundaries, truck access can possibly be taken care of faster, allowing better coordination at games. It's likely once boundaries are figured out that permanent markers should be erected at the field, to denote spawn points or capture points, boundaries, and safe zones.

3) TRAINING. Simple. Those that want to do, do, either on their own time, before the game, or during, but allowing others to do as they wish. Those that don't want to, play a game instead. I am willing to run games during these training sessions for those who are not as concerned with high levels of gameplay, just to keep new players and casual players entertained. There shouldn't be absolute "YES we MUST have training" or "NO we should NOT have training" answers. Why not have both. To prevent the "splitting of the club" I recommend having both on the same day, running a game during the training session, and letting everyone choose. Would we be better prepared for OPs if everyone on the team played high level tactics? Probably. Is everyone having fun if we train at high level? No. By letting both sides have their fun, results can be balanced with the desires of those on the team. We do have many players who don't go to OPs and just want trigger time, just like we have many players who go to OPs and want to play better as a unit and earn results. Meet the needs of both without compromising cohesiveness and enjoyment for all.

4) DISCIPLINE. Similar to point 1 above, we are getting too large to afford being unorganized. At the field, any childish behavior should be reprimanded immediately with a verbal acknowledgement. Compromising the safety, respect, and time of everyone else around is not worth it. Praise good behavior, so others know what is acceptable, and call out bad behavior, so others know what not to do. If it does get to a serious point and repeated offenses occur, then plain and simple, suspend for a game. Not worth the time to stop club activity constantly to address the same problem. Then they will quickly learn. People not paying attentions during briefings seem to occur because briefings start, obviously, without everyone paying attention. Before briefings begin, I suggest making eye contact with everyone and not starting until everyone is looking up or has acknowledged they are listening as they are loading up.

5) PREP TIME. The problem is two fold. Late arrivals to the field, and late starting due to excessive loading time. Solution therefore, is two fold. Start walking up to the field at 10:00 AM and start, regardless of who is there or not, who said they would be there, or not. Anything short of a drastic enforcement of this start time is not helpful to fixing the problem. You show up late, you lose your own game time. As for excessive loading time, start the game promptly with an announced time. We have been doing a much better job of this, and with the prompt starting time, the loading time should therefore be earlier. Announce "10:20, we are STARTING" and actually start, then people will be ready. This requires discipline from those directing the game, be it officers or admins.

6) GAME TYPES. Not much for me to say here. Only way we are going to know if they work or not is to try them. I'm all up for trying new types suggested by those on the forums. Brings variability, includes everyone in decision making process, and keeps everyone on their toes. But keep the game types simple is all I ask. Razz

6) RANDOM. Will somebody PLEASE get an air horn, or bring a set of walkie talkies designated SOLELY for game use? I'm so tired of screaming my lungs out "ARE. YOU. REAAAADY??!?!?" before each game, only to hear squabble and indiscriminate rabble shouted back. Would make all our lives easier. -__- Small point in relation to the main points being discussed here, but just threw that out here as a big pet peeve of mine for the past 4 years playing with ACVT. tongue

Treat these as growing pains, gentlemen (and ladies). These are good problems to have Wink We have grown so much over the years and are making our presence known to others out there favorably. We just have to adjust to make sure we keep up with our public image, as well as keep up the membership on the homefront. Pretty soon, almost the entire current leadership will be graduating and/or leaving. We must leave a good legacy in place and pass off the club in good faith. Game on, folks. rabbit

*NOTE: If I think of other solutions, I will add. These are only suggestions, not implemented solutions yet. I offer these to the officers from the point of view of admin, and my observed corrections to address problems at games. Several times, I was the only person of authority present at games with the absence of officers, so I am speaking from experience.
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Post  Prophet Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:39 pm

Hey guys. Come out to play and see what is up. Come with an open lighthearted non confrontational attitude and we can have a great day of airsoft. If someone has the binder bring it and if there are games that you would like to play specifically let us know in the game thread. Everyone's input matters and can help the games run more smoothly. I like Kyle's new game and we will definitely play that! Way to go Kyle as it is a great idea. After game day we will have an AAR thread to discuss what went right and what to improve. Smile
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Post  kalak Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm

There will always be different approaches to Airsoft here, and at any field that people play on. I haven't made it out yet this semester (hopefully this weekend), so I can't speak to and changes in style, but I do know that I will never be able to keep up with the level of skill, training and equipment that can be found in those with Airsoft as a higher priority in their lives. I have no problem getting beaten by those who have more skill than I do - that's one way to get better. I like the points for solutions that NGOB posted as a way to think about the thread's issues, and want to hear more about addressing the differences in how people want to play than in trying to exclude casual or serious players, or even which we should be.

My big concern is that casual and serious players won't be playing together ("they can play in another part of the field"), especially since we don't have a turnout of 50 a weekend. We can't afford to lose 1/2 the players a large part of the time. Perhaps a "serious time" from 10-12 and "casual" from 12-2 (I think the more serious attitude tends to give away to more casual attitudes as the day goes on out in the field anyway, but that may be my exhaustion talking after 4 hours out there.) That those who want to do both can go for the whole time, those that want part can go to that part. This, and other ideas posted, leave room for both casual and serious, and I'm sure you'll see some casual players get more serious (I have, but at a slower pace - kids will do that), and some serious be more casual (maybe as course work gets in the way), attendance at times can ebb and flow with the desires of make up of the group. I don't want to think I'm coming out for a day of 10, and it turns out that 5 want to talk & train tactics, while 5 want to just casually play around, leaving everyone dissatisfied with having 2 groups split so small that games are not worth playing at all (2 games of 5, maybe 2vs3 on one part of the field, and another 2vs3 on another part). Better to have 5 come out, train, 5 join later in larger games of 10, then the first 5 leave when they're worn out, leaving 5 to mess around in smaller games. (I'd love to see those numbers be doubles, but 20 is a large turnout for this group, and 10 is not unheard of.)

I will say I'm glad to see the discussion here rather than at a random restaurant as 1. I can't make weeknights work, 2. I can't eat much random restraints anyway (you wheat eating bastards), 3. casual players don't make it out to the gatherings as much as they're new, 4. I can think about this before answering and not shoot from the hip, so props for discussing it here.

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